Jude Law Drew from Kurt Cobain for Netflix Crime Thriller

Editor’s Note: The conversation that follows includes spoilers about the entire story of Black Rabbit.

Just a few days ago, Netflix released its highly anticipated new star-laden crime thriller,Black RabbitThe show debuted at TIFF a few weeks ago, andafter bingeingthe intense, stressful series, we were excited to speak with the creative minds behind it. Ahead of the debut, creatorsZach Baylin and Kate Susman, and series star Jude Law, joined us for a detailed discussion to explore some of the most significant — and unforgettable — moments from the eight-episode series.

Located in contemporary New York City,Black Rabbit perfectly conveys the high-speed, thrilling atmosphere of a rising Manhattan restaurant, managed by a former rock star, Jake Friedken (Law). As if that wasn’t already a strong enough plotline,Black RabbitThe main storyline revolves around the return of Jake’s older brother, Vince (Jason Bateman), and his conman tactics ultimately destroy his entire life on a grand scale. The series is an authentic story that blends realism with a few wild twists and turns.

During our discussion, we talked about how New York transforms into a character in its own right inBlack Rabbit, influencing not only the characters but also the plot; how much enjoyment Jude Law experienced in exploring Jake’s rock star past; how music became a key element in the storytelling; and also what remained unspoken about Joe Mancuso’sTroy Kotsur)fatherly love for the Friedken brothers. You can view the interview above, or continue reading for the complete transcript.

Creators of Black Rabbit Desired New York City to Seem Genuine

There’s no possibility you could catch a subway in that short amount of time.

Muara Digital Team: I am aware that it’s quite a cliche to mention that New York City seems like a distinct entity inBlack Rabbit, but it does. Zach and Kate, could you share a bit about how the selected location influenced the story? And for you, Jude, how New York plays a part in defining who Jake is as a character.

KATE SUSMAN: Zach and I lived in New York for nearly 20 years during our 20s and 30s, and it still feels like home to us. For me, it’s the greatest city in the world. It’s frequently shown in movies and television, but we had never seen it portrayed that way.ourNew York, the more rugged or less polished sections of the city, the kind of hidden or underground aspects. So, we really aimed to create a depiction of the areas we experienced in New York and to highlight the workers and the challenges faced by those who live in the city. The specifics of what makes New York unique were very important to us.

We’ve discussed the commute extensively, like if we had a scene set in Coney Island, and then we were planning to shoot in the Lower East Side, we would always say, “There’s no way you could take the subway in that amount of time, and if you’re driving, it’s 4:00 PM with traffic.” Every detail needed to be just right. Who are the people walking by the street during this time? What kind of people would be allowed into the Black Rabbit? Who is the bouncer that Jake and Vince would have chosen to decide who can enter this club? If you live in New York, you understand this, and you would know. If you don’t live in New York, you might not realize if these elements didn’t feel exactly right, but for us, it had to feel authentic because it was our experience, and we wanted to portray it accurately.

ZACH BAYLIN: And I would just say, we had an outstanding location scout, Paul Eskenazi, who had also been involved inSuccession, and to include things in the script, such as the 10th Street Russian Baths. Where Troy Kotsur’s character is employed, that is an actual place. I don’t think there’s a bookmaker’s office in the basement, but that is this well-known New York East Village establishment that we spent many a hungover Sunday morning at. And to incorporate that part of our life into this story, in this world, in a fictional manner, was truly amazing for us to experience.

SUSMAN: The bars we used to hang out at, the restaurants we visited. We barely got any rejections for the locations we wanted to film. By the end, we were thinking, “Could we actually film on the Brooklyn Bridge, like someone running across it? That was feasible?” It was exciting.

And for you, Jude?

JUDE LAW: I was simply reflecting that when you reside here and work here, even if you’re just a visitor, and I’ve spent up to a year here, and sometimes just come for a weekend, you experience everything they mentioned in your body. So I believe that to truly succeed and thrive here, you need to fully embrace all of that. To survive, Kate briefly mentioned earlier how it’s a graft. It’s a hard grind. You must work extremely hard. You need ambition. Some might say you have to put on a facade. You have to fake it until you make it, and Jake definitely has that quality. However, at the same time, you meet him at a significant moment in his life. He’s turned 50. He’s genuinely trying to leave his bad habits behind. He’s striving to go straight. Well, he is legitimate, but he’s attempting to take a step forward and, in a sense, claim some of that ambition for himself.

So, it’s a crucial moment, and naturally, it’s torn apart and left in shambles because of the return of his older brother, who played a major role in building him up in the first place. But capturing that kind of confidence, that kind of street-smart self-assurance — he can converse with a Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist just as easily as a rock star, just as easily as the men who deliver the meat, just as easily as those who work in the kitchen. It’s quite an impressive balancing act in many ways. I knew and met some of these individuals. I’ve known them since I’ve been coming here, and they’re very appealing. You also understand, as with all of us, as with anyone, that there’s more going on beneath the surface, and that’s really at the core of our story. You two always describe it as, when you enter these restaurants, at night you’re having the best time, and the more you drink, the more enjoyable it becomes. If you come in the morning, the floor is a bit sticky, and it smells a little bad, and there are rats in the back, and you suddenly see an entirely different side of it.

How Did ‘Black Rabbit’ Allow Jude Law to Fulfill His Rock Star Aspirations?

Don’t intimidate him with an enjoyable experience.

You brought up rock stars, which instantly made me think of the music video sequence, which was really enjoyable to watch. Even though I’m terrified of rabbits, especially people wearing rabbit masks, I still love that part.

LAW: Oh, sorry! We have a few of those masks; we’ll send you one.

BAYLIN: Some individuals were at the gathering yesterday. That was quite unsettling.

LAW: With the glass of wine!

Discuss the process of filming that scene and the opportunity to delve into that aspect of Jake, even within a flashback, and share some of your musical influences that shaped his appearance. I felt a strong resemblance to Kurt Cobain with his look.

LAW: It was all very much written in, and it became part of the backstory that I jumped on and got really excited about, hoping that you’d see more and more of it until I realized that playing it myself in my 20s just isn’t going to happen without a lot of Scotch tape. It was an opportunity to have some fun. I think strangely, though, seriously, it’s an important reminder not only of the brothers’ relationship, but where their relationship went wrong in the past, the dreams and ambitions that Jake had as a successful musician, which were destroyed by his brother, something we come to understand, and the best way to do that was to go back and see what they were like. Because Jake has a bit of a hairstyle throughout the series, and I thought, “Who would he have wanted to be back then?” And I kept coming back to Cobain. We were very lucky. You should talk more about it because you wrote all the great music references.

SUSMAN: I just want to mention, before that, that I really enjoyed the music video flashback, but I especially love the moment when you return to the bar. The concept of being a 40 or 50-year-old and then finding yourself in a bar where your video is playing is fascinating. I really appreciate how Jake is somewhat embarrassed but also trying to maintain his cool, and I think you portray that very well. You both added so much more to that scene than was originally written. But I truly like the idea that Vince is feeling great, doing well, this song comes on, and he’s reliving that moment again, while Jake is a bit on edge and isn’t quite sure how to respond. I just love that interaction. That’s, I believe, one of the most impressive moments in the episode.

BAYLIN: One of the wonderful aspects of the show was that we are big fans of The Strokes, and the era in New York is portrayed very nicely in this book,Meet Me in the Lounge, just about the type of post-9/11 revival of a New York rock scene. We really discussed a lot about the brothers’ band coming out of that and burning out maybe before they achieved that peak. So, we were very fortunate, and Albert Hammond Jr. from The Strokes wrote the songs that the Black Rabbits perform, but Jude sings. That’s Jude’s voice. He’s truly exceptionally talented. We did have to pull him out of the studio.

SUSMAN: Kicking and screaming.

LAW: [Laughs] I aimed to release an album. I was declaring a return tour, even though he never actually had one.

BAYLIN: We said, “Jude, you’re supposed to be on set.” You responded, “No, I have a few more tracks left to finish.”

I mean, it’s very popular these days for actors to pursue their own music careers, so I’m just saying.

LAW: I don’t require any motivation.

SUSMAN: Don’t intimidate him with a pleasant experience.

SUSMAN: However, the concept of a band that was on the edge and never truly succeeded is incredibly heartbreaking, and we really enjoyed exploring that theme. They somewhat achieved fame in New York but were never able to expand further, and it’s interesting to consider how Jake feels the burden of thinking, “My foolish brother, if it weren’t for this situation, my life could have taken an entirely different path.” We found it fascinating to delve into this aspect of the character.

I really want to learn more about the music since this show has an outstanding soundtrack. Jude, you’re welcome to share as well if there are any songs that you turn to for Jake’s inspiration when getting into his character. Discuss how you put that together for the series.

LAW: You all mentioned so many fantastic songs. It was also very evident that we were all on the same page. I believe understanding this scene, knowing this kind of bar, we had playlists that we were exchanging right from the start, and then we were fortunate to have a great team go out and choose them. You can’t always getexactlywhat you desired, but we came quite close.

BAYLIN: Music was a significant element, both in terms of the show’s atmosphere and in the characters’ lives. Starting Vince’s journey with that song by Willie Hutch also sets up a moment that his mother later plays in a flashback. The concept that music was deeply embedded in their lives was something we aimed to reflect in the characters. I’m not sure if there’s one particular song that defines the overall style.

LAW: There’s always The Strokes.

SUSMAN: Indeed, we were into a lot of The Strokes.

BAYLIN: There’s a Strokes song at the start of Episode 8, which is a flashback, that we listened to frequently in the writers’ room, really to capture… There’s a sense of nostalgia and uplifting, yet also sorrowful, about that track.

LAW: I believe there’s also a clever aspect to including, I think it’s in [Episode] 2, the Fontaine’s D.C. track, as it serves as a reminder that this isn’t set in the past. It’s relevant to the present day. The energy is clearly shown through a band like the Fontaines, who are making waves worldwide, and I think they continue that kind of intense punk rock, guitar-driven sound, not just musically, but also in their overall approach.

BAYLIN: Then, obviously, having Ray, who serves as a bridge between different time periods, is both very contemporary and lively, yet also brings to mind a different era of music in New York. I believe her performance in Episode 3, combined with the song at the end of the series, which is also a Dinah Washington track, hopefully unites this entire vision of New York.

What’s the Story Behind Joe Mancuso and the Friedken Brothers’ Mom?

You brought up the flashbacks involving their mother. I’m very interested in what viewers will ultimately take from the flashbacks featuring Joe Mancuso and their mother. Could you share some thoughts on that relationship and how you wove it throughout the story? It’s a fascinating link between the two.

BAYLIN: We were extremely fortunate to have Troy in that part. I believe his versatility is truly remarkable, and he was able to portray a character who could be both the antagonist and intimidating, yet also deeply tender, emotional, and vulnerable. We were particularly keen on delving into the less threatening aspect of that character.

SUSMAN: That character resonates with Jake and Vince, as if they have a family-like bond that develops over time with a shared painful history. I believe, if it were up to Mancuso, events between them would have unfolded quite differently. You can sense, as Zach mentioned, there’s a lot of warmth and a sort of paternal, uncle-like affection he has for these individuals, which adds weight to his actions and makes it more impactful when he has to act negatively. I think you all portrayed that beautifully. I really enjoyed that scene, watching it again during the premiere, when you first see him in the office, because I think the audience initially feels this is going to be intimidating, but then it turns out to be very warm when you interact with each other.

LAW: Everything will be fine. It’s all going to turn out okay. He mentions my mom, saying I resemble her. What’s amazing as a viewer is that you complete the missing parts, but I really appreciate the implication that perhaps Mancuso and our mother had a connection, and when he looks at me, he seems to think, “Oh, that’s the woman I might have fallen in love with.” It’s complex, and I enjoy that. There are many aspects of the past that are explored in detail, allowing you to see or learn about them, while other parts remain a bit unclear, and I believe that’s excellent storytelling. It allows you to imagine the rest.

But naturally, that connects us to Junior as well. I always thought of Junior as a little younger than Jake and Vince, so I can picture him as a bratty young kid who always had the best bike and the best shoes. We’d often say, “Go away! You’re only eight. Leave us alone.” However, his path, striving to prove himself to his father, definitely carries significant influence and pressure on the streets, bringing us all together.

BAYLIN: In Episode 6, there’s a scene where Junior and Vince are in a car together, both having been rejected by their families. For the first time, they recognize the similar roles they’ve played as the outcasts in their respective families. Occasionally, these moments are planned during the writing process, but sometimes when you have two exceptional actors, something unexpected emerges that was always there but perhaps wasn’t explicitly highlighted. These kinds of discoveries are truly satisfying.

LAW: To add to that, Babbitt, because when you have a talented actor like Chris Coy joining, and these writers are flexible and intelligent enough to think, “Oh, we can add something here.” You also realize, “Well, hold on, if we need Junior and Mancuso, then Babbitt likely grew up in our neighborhood, so we know these people. So this person who’s been intimidating us has probably always done so.” He was the local bully who beat everyone up, someone you never wanted to cross. Once again, it all comes together seamlessly.

SUSMAN: We briefly discussed who might be able to intimidate these individuals? Babbitt and Junior are somewhat younger, so how would you scare Vince and Jake? However, the concept that they’re somewhat unpredictable, I believe those characters executed it very effectively. They are unpredictable and sometimes not very intelligent, which makes them extremely difficult to anticipate, and I think that’s what makes them so frightening.

Black Rabbit is currently available to stream on Netflix.